Blood Angels - 2000pts

Hi guys,
I put together this army list and wanted to get your guys thoughts on it. I am trying to come up with a solid army list for the upcoming local tournament this summer. Traditionally I get my butt handed to me in every game. The only reason I won a game at last year's tourney was down to bad luck on my opponent's part, and the scenario highly favoring the fast nature of the BA's.

So with that in mind I am trying to put together a list that will at least give me a fight chance, and hopefully make up for my own incompetence.

Blood Angels - 2000 pt. list

HQ
• Commander Dante - 225 pts

Elites
• Chaplain w/ Powerfist - 115 pts

• Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon - 65 pts

Troops
• Sanguinary Guard (5-man) - 235 pts
- Death Masks & Power Fist

• Tactical Squad (10-man) - 190 pts
- Power Weapon, Melta Gun, & Missle Launcher

• Assault Squad (5-man) - 190 pts
- Power Weapon, Storm Shield & Melta Bombs

• Death Company (10-man) - 260
- 2x Power Weapons, 1x Thunderhammer

• Death Company Dread - 150
- Magna Grapple & Heavy Flamer

Fast Attack
• Vanguard Veteran Squad (5-man) - 195 pts
- Jump Packs, 2x Power Weapons, Melta Bombs

• Baal Predator - 155 pts
- Heavy Bolter Sponsons & Storm Bolter

Heavy
• Stormraven - 215 pts
- Twin-Linked Las Cannons
- Extra Armor

Model Count - 41

Units - 8

Scoring Units - 3(4 if combat squad)

Strategy:

Dante + Sang Guard

Chaplain + DC

Sang Priest + Tac Squad

Tactical squad will split into Combat squads (unless there are Kill Points)

Both will guard home objective if needed and support each other.

Everything else Deep Strikes

DC/DC Dread arrive via Storm Raven

Storm Raven keeps up distance and Speed and uses Las Cannons to add fire support from range


Thoughts? What works and what doesn't? THanks in advance for your help!

The only thing that I can speak knowledably on is that I've heard the vanguard aren't worth the points and that most good lists I've seen have another baal

Honestly your list is all over the place : \. 1 of everything does not a solid list make. If you wanna run DoA run DoA, but that means no preds/dreads. The biggest problem is that you only have 3/4 scoring units. At 2k you want 4 with potential for more (aka 4 or 6 w/ combat squads). Are you wanting to play Jumpers? If so I can help out, but like I said, what you've currently got is a bit hectic so I'm not sure where to start.

Not sure what I am trying to play. I guess that is the problem. I am trying to make it an assault army. I am also trying to work with what models I have on hand (for the most part).

I am not sure DoA is worth the risk. I have been playing a jump heavy list, but the problem is not being able to assault after deep striking, so I have to spend a turn sitting around trying to not get shot to pieces. I am thinking it might make more sense to start with my assault marines on the board.

What do you guys suggest?

If you want jump assault, a very solid core is 4x10 ASM w/ 2x melta and a PF/LC for troops and 3x5 Devs w/ MLs for long range fire power and suppression fire. That should come out to about 1300 if I recall correctly, think it's a tiny bit more. That leaves you with ~700 pts to play with for HQ/Elites/Fast. With this core you need to remember, DoA is an option NOT a given.

I agree with the consensus here. The army has too much of this and that in it. You can win some games with the list, but from the sounds of things you want some consistency in your wins!

Look around and see what strikes your fancy as far as tough blood angels lists go, and pick out the over riding goal your army is trying to achieve. For an army to be tournament sound you can't just take what you might have or might like. You have to pick units for their synergy with what it is that you are trying to achieve with the army. What is the advantage you are trying to level against your foe.

Here are the primary goals I try to achieve:
My guard: You cannot destroy all 13 tanks before I have destroyed all your troops
My Eldar: I have no vehicles, so your anti tank is wasted. Do you deal with wraiths, wraithlords or seer council? Target Saturation.

With Blood Angels I either recommend mech angels or DoA angels. For DoA I would seriously consider some vanguard and I would try to overload a flank and maybe deny some of the opponents shooting.

Just some thoughts. I like the list Phantom is proposing too - I would just add some VG and an HQ. Also if you want DoA why not field Dante?

If not DoA I think Mephiston hiding behind a rhino is mandatory

About your list having a bit of everything. That doesn't necessarily make a bad list. You have to have each bit have a set role on the field and have it maximized to do that. I don't think having a little of everything is bad it just has to have a specific purpose and you have to know what to do with that unit and how to deploy it. I ran a codex marine list for for about 3 years that was a bit of everything but I had played it so long I knew what to do against most things and had a specific role for everything I had on the board.

The problem I see with your list is every unit seems not to have a specific purpose. You don't have to necessarily go for what ever the internet says to run. The big internet way to run BA is to razor spam. I would and do rip through razor spam. It's a ganky list that you have to be a really good general to do anything with as you only have 8 units of 5 guys and most things now days have no problem dealing with 5 marines.

Now from a fluff or casual gaming point of view nothing is wrong with the list. But from your post it sounds like you would like to turn it into a more competitive list. I'll give a run down of each unit and what I see good and bad about it from a competitive point of view and hopefully that will help you. Another thing I recommend is to find a list you like and STICK WITH IT for at lease 3 or 4 months. A lot of people get so wrapped up in lists and list building that they never play with the same list twice and they experience to what to do with their army is what is making them lose. Just because your Dante unit does bad one game doesn't mean he sucks and you should drop him for something else. Knowing that each unit will have a good game and a bad game and knowing what to do with the unit in an unfavorable match up will help you be a better player. Only drop a unit for something else if it consistently performs poorly.

Dante = Sexy

Chaplain = I don't think you need him but he can certainly be good. I personally would drop him.

Sanguinary priest = give him a jump pack and throw him in with Dante's unit and hes golden.

Sanguinary guard = Death masks are generally not worth their points. take a banner and at least one melta pistol to complement Dante's and his no scatter rule. (sang g, banner, 2x melta, fist) This unit is more expensive than yours you had but with Dante and the priest it will be a 2+/4++ save and have 6 power weapons and 1 fist with FC and a really really good chance to pop that land raider or whatever that scares you.

Tactical squad - I don't know what role these guys have. A common mistake (for competition) is to put power weapons in a unit with a bunch on non-power weapon attacks at the same initiative. With wound allocation your basically wasting 15 points. Go chain sword or fist or hammer nothing else on your sarg. In general in the BA codex Assault squads can do anything a Tac squad can and generally cheaper or better. But if you want to keep them give them either a drop pod or a rhino to get that melta gun into their lines more. I would say drop these guys for an Assault squad but if you want to keep them than something like this would be better. 10x tac squad combi melta, melta, missile Launcher, Drop pod. (sarg should be given melta bombs or a fist to help with dreads and the ilk.)

Assault squad - The storm shield is a waste as it's only protecting a +1 leadership +1 attack model with a power weapon. Power weapon is still a waste. I would flush this out to a 10 man squad and either run jump packs or take a free drop pod. Take advantage of them being able to take 2 assault weapons as that is their main thing also take advantage of a free or cheap transport. Run sarg naked or with a fist or hammer.

Death Company - Dear fucking god! Most of your points are right here. Drop these guys down to 3 guys with thunder hammers or 5 guys with power weapons and then leave them alone. Run them in the storm raven to add threat to your opponent. This will save you a metric ton of points. Since your list already has the uber anti infantry power weapon squad in the form of sang guard I would recommend 3 or 4 guys with hammers or fists.

Death Company Dread - I hate these! not controlling your models is the worst tactical thing you can bring to the table. Either run a furioso in a drop pod or run it in the storm raven. I don't know if I would run it in the storm raven for fear of too many eggs in one basket.

Vanguard - Vanguard are cool. But only take this choice knowing that it will only be a cool unit. A tournament list has no place for these guys...

Baal Pred - assuming your have the assault cannon on the top mount... A+!

Storm Raven - Extra armor is a must on this guy. I would think about dropping the las cannon for the multi melta as its purpose is to get in their face and drop a unit or two that is nasty they have to deal with. So sitting back 4 feet and shooting the lascannon probably isn't recommended. Also the assault cannon is a good choice since you have PotMS you can shoot it at side armor or infantry and have the blood missiles go for vehicles.

Here is what I would suggest as a good starting point list.
(I don't have my codex near by and don't feel like mathing. But I'm pretty familiar with points so it should get you close.)

HQ = Dante 225

T = Sang Guard, Banner, 2x melta, fist 260

E = Priest, Pack, PW 90

T = Assault Squad, 10x, Mbombs, 2x plasma guns, Drop pod, 225

T = Assault squad, 10x, fist, 2x melta guns, Drop Pod, 235

T =Tactiacal squad, 10x, Combi melta, fist, melta, missile, Drop pod 240

T = Death Company, 4x, 4x fists 180

E = Furioso Dread, Melta, Hvy Flamer, Drop Pod 165

F = Baal Pred, Assault Cannon, Hvy Bolters, Storm bolter, 155

Hvy = Storm Raven, Extra Armour, 215

1990

If you don't own or want that many drop pods then the furioso can go in the storm raven and the tactical squad in a rhino and the assault squads can tak jump packs. I think this is a better set up but requires 4 pods.


Basic unit stratagy

Dante + Priest + Sang guard = Drop them in without scatter to get 3 melta shots right where you want them after that have a death dealing anti infantry squad that ignores armor saves. Beware of plasma squads or lots of ap 1 or 2 weapons. Also a scoring unit.

Plasma A squad = Probably hold it out of the initial drop pod assault to come in later and mop up some infantry or terminators or light vehicles later and other than thta act as a more charge oriented tactical squad.

Melta A squad = Drop in to pop a vehicle and be a general scoring unit.

Tactical squad = Can either drop back when it comes in to hold an objective and missile away or drop to try and snag another enemie vehicle unit. These guys are more likely to hold while your other scoring units hunt.

Storm Raven + Death Company = Fly up start of game and drop the death company in the middle of their forces and let them loose caring little if they die and retreating with the raven to shoot long range missiles or mid range fire support.

Baal Pred = Move around quickly and mop up infantry units or try and get side shots on armor. I would generally recommend keeping this near a flank. Most armies have a fast mobile vehicle hunter unit and this will draw them far on a flank out of position while the rest of the army does its job.

Furioso = Drop in turn 1 and basically say... "deal with this" and it will give you time to get all your other units into better positions and also use all your empty drop pods to contest objectives or give cover saves to other units. It may actually kill something as well!

I hope some of this helps you. Always ask your opponent at the end of the game what you could have done better and tell them where they did great or bad as well. This will help you learn. Next tournament lets aim for winning just 1 game!

I agree, drop the DC dred... AV 13 on a normal furioso combined with actually being able to control him makes a huge difference.

I've never used a storm raven or seen one in action, so i can't give much advice there, but if you're dead set on running DC in one, i'd drop the number of guys... usually 4-7 is the magic number on DC, it doesn't seem like a strong squad, but the only size squad that has served me better was when i ran two squads of 20 as a joke.

Also, along with dropping a few members of DC, I'd drop the chaplain as well, since you have him running with DC, and take lemartes instead. All the bonuses of having a chaplain, without being singled out as an IC, and also possessing the wonderful ability of becoming super pissed when hurt.

Having said all of this, i would advise dropping your chaplain and DC altogether... a full assault squad with a priest within 6 inches has all of the FC/FNP goodness of DC, with a slightly reduced WS and one less attack. A little less killy, to be sure, but that's more controllable scoring units that you can use if the need arises.

vanguard never, NEVER work when you need them to. at least for me. they're typically tooled up one-hit wonders, most people who do use them use them for suicide meltas. a well placed drop pod can do the same for cheaper

While I don't agree with everything LBB says (especially about the Raven, I still think Lascannon + No Upgrades and empty is the way to go), he makes good points. Even more important than having the most optimized list is knowing how to use what you bring. Experience is the best way to learn the game. Use our advice as a starting point, not as gospel truth.

littleboyblues wrote:

Always ask your opponent at the end of the game what you could have done better and tell them where they did great or bad as well. This will help you learn. Next tournament lets aim for winning just 1 game!

Very good advice, always do this.



Suggestions that I might make though:

1: Keep Plasma out of Assault Squads. If it wasn't rapid fire I'd say take it, as it is I wouldn't. Denying yourself the ability to shoot High S/Low AP shots before charging or denying yourself the charge entirely doesn't seem wise. Plasma has it's place, but I don't think ASMs are it.

2: Reconsider the DC. I'm not going to tell you not to take them, even though I've made it abundantly clear I hate them in this edition. Between Rage and being ungodly expensive, I'm not sure they're something you should take in a list while you're trying to work your way up to tourney levels. Especially with them being as small as they are, they will be extremely susceptible to being lead around by the nose and dealt with at range. They can be fun, but not something I'd recommend while trying to learn the list, but that might just be me.

3: I don't like BA Pods. Except for Dreads, I honestly don't see a point for BA Drop Pods. When we already have extremely accurate deepstrike, and reserves modification, I don't see the purpose in feeding your opponent kill points.

4: Consider running the Raven as a Gunboat. Instead of trying to make the Raven into some superfast 3 unit rock to shove down your opponents throat, consider using it as your ranged fire power. (Also: I'm not sold on EA as a must take, but if you have the points for it grab it and don't think twice)
Example 1: T1 Raven starts on the field, fires TL-LC and 2 Bloodstrike Missles(potentially at 2 targets thanks to PotMS). T2 Raven repeats after adjusting for better LoS. T3 Raven speeds flat out forward using PotMS to take a TL-MM shot at side/rear armor of remaining targets. This works best with 2-3 Ravens but I don't see a problem with 1 outside of slight low target saturation.
Example 2: You're playing IG and Vendettas want to make you cry. Unload 4 Missiles and TL-LC into vendetta for a very good chance of blowing it up in the back field giving you higher mobility and freedom to speed about unhindered.
Also keeping it empty lowers it's target priority considerably.

5: Librarians. Point for point they are the best HQ we have, coming in at a dirt cheep 100(125 w/ Pack) giving you Fear/Lance/Unleash/Shield/Sword. They're the swiss army knife of the codex, they fit literally every possible build. Packs? Shield and Sword. Razors? Shield and Fear. DoA? Shield and Lance. BA Deathstar? Sword and Unleash. Shield is nice because it's basically Free Epistolary and cover in the open is always beautiful. My personal favorite is Shield + Fear.

6: Dante = Sexy

First off I want to give a huge thanks to you guys for your input. I really appreciate it. I am going to reconsider my list based on the advice and then I'll post a new list. I do have a few questions though:

• Librarians - I actually like librarians, but was unsure of their viability in the coming tournament scene with the upcoming Grey Knights release. I was afraid that there is going to be a lot of these guys running around, and it seems to me that psykers will have problems. Am I wrong?

• I definitely want a storm raven so will look at how I can make it work better. Do you guys have any thoughts on adding the hurricane bolters?

• Drop Pods - will probably stay away from these, they have never worked for me. though, I do like the idea of dropping them near objective so that they contest. Adds one more thing my opponent has to kill. hopefully sparing my troops from some firing.

thanks again for your help!

Quote :

Next tournament lets aim for winning just 1 game!

That was my goal last year and I actually did win one. Though it was mostly luck.
This year, I hope to win at least 2 (or maybe a win and a draw...)

I meant to reply and never got around to it. Vanguard should not be suicidal drops you can't drop them in the middle of the opponents line carelessly and expect them to live. They will get shot to pieces. So to avoid that they should drop in an area where they can heroic intervention and assault two units or squads. They put all attacks but one guy against a vehicle with krak grenades on the turn they assault. If your in hth with fearless units or marines you can swing attacks against one of the squads. No attacks are directed against the 2nd assaulted unit except for those required. This keeps you engaged in the opponents turn so he cant shoot up your vanguard on his turn. If he Assaults them - fine. But by then your vg have done their Job in buying your army time to advance.

A pretty interesting list over at YTTH today. Sorta fits the "some of everything" idea. I know it doesn't have Dante or SangGuard but it's worth a look. Good for a few ideas and such.

I usually don't just post 100% negative comments...

But I pretty much hate that blog and the bastard that runs it.

Then again, Hate is to soft a word.

Yes, he's usually an Arse. Yes, he's pretty full of himself. But when it comes to list building and general tactical advice, his blog is one of the best sources out there. His advice is sound even if you don't like him or the way he works.

That aside, the list I linked seems like a lot of fun. He refers to it as a 'toolbox' list and I think it's pretty fitting. First list I've seen in a long time that uses furiosos, scouts, and tacs so it made me think of this thread. Though it would be worth sharing.

Edit- Silly profanity filter, I didn't say arse...

PhantomPhoenix wrote:

Yes, he's usually an Arse. Yes, he's pretty full of himself. But when it comes to list building and general tactical advice, his blog is one of the best sources out there. His advice is sound even if you don't like him or the way he works.

That aside, the list I linked seems like a lot of fun. He refers to it as a 'toolbox' list and I think it's pretty fitting. First list I've seen in a long time that uses furiosos, scouts, and tacs so it made me think of this thread. Though it would be worth sharing.

Edit- Silly profanity filter, I didn't say arse...

LOL. 2 complaints about the profanity filter in one week! I'm contemplating changing someones name to chuckles the clown in the filter.

Yeah, Stelek comes across as a jerk, but his content is solid. Its a shame you have to read between the lines of drama to get to the goods, but what is there is VERY good.

Thanks for the comments guys. I do appreciate the advice. I was playing around with my list again and came up with this...

HQ:
• Astorath

Elite:
• 5-man Terminator Squad w/ Cyclone

• Sang priest w/ Jump Pack

• Sang priest w/ Jump Pack

Troops:
• 10-man Tac Squad w/ Fist, Meltagun & Missle in Drop Pod

• 10-man Tac Squad w/ Fist, Meltagun & Missle in Drop Pod

• 10-man Assualt squad w/ Thunder Hammer & 2x Meltagun

• 10-man Assualt squad w/ Thunder Hammer & 2x Meltagun

Fast Attack:
• Landspeeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Multi-Melta

• Landspeeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Multi-Melta

• Landspeeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Multi-Melta

Heavy:
Storm Raven w/ Multi-Meltas, Assault Cannons & Hurricane Sponsons

So my thoughts are this:

• Astorath gives me a 50/50 chance of Furious Charge. He will attach to an assault squad

• Sang priests are attached to assualt squads to up survivability

• Terminators are loaded into the Storm Raven for deployment behind enemy lines or on top of their objective.

• Tac squads drop onto home objective(s). Combat squad upon deployment. That makes 3-6 units that are contesting the objective. (would not combat squad in Kill Point matches)

• In non KP matches could also combat squad the assualt units and use them as 1-2 hitters. (first squad assualts, then second supports for 2 furious charges against the enemy unit.)

• landspeeders are used as harrassing elements and late game objective contesters.


Thoughts?

Much better list with clear purposes for units. I would play test and see if you like regular terms or hammer terms. I would also play around with your speeder load outs.

My only other thought would be consider getting a librarian in there somehow.... But sometimes you've just got to bite the bullet!

Possible tweaks keeping Jester's suggestions in mind.

Libby w/ Pack Shield and Other (I would recommend Sword in this list)

Trade your Tac Termies for Assaults (3TH/SS 2DLC comes out 55 pts cheaper) you're not going to be able to shoot that cyclone from inside the Raven anyway.

Downgrade the THs on the ASMs to PFists to save some points.

Combi-Melta+PW on Tac Sarge, you're going to be Combat Squadding in 2/3 games and 1 fist in 5 marines dies awful quick. Even with the Fists, you still want to lose combat by 1 so you can run away and shoot them some more. Maybe also ditch the PWs to make the Pods into Rhinos, just a thought.

I like the Lascannon better than the Assault on a Raven, but I'd definitely ditch the Hurricanes with points as close as they are currently.

Then if you drop one of the Speeders you have 10 pts left over to either put your THs back on the ASMs or give the SPs Meltabombs (I prefer this one) or maybe give the Raven ExA.


Think it ends up looking like this:

1990/2000

HQ:

Astorath - 220
Librarian - Pack, Shield, Sword - 125

Elite:

Assault Terminators - Sarge w/ TH/SS, 2xTH/SS, 2xDLC - 215
Sanguinary Priest x2 - Pack - 150

Troops:

Assault Squad x10 - Melta x2, PF - 235
Assault Squad x10 - Melta x2, PF - 235
Tactical Squad x10 - Melta, Missile, Combi-Melta, Power Weapon, Pod - 235
Tactical Squad x10 - Melta, Missile, Combi-Melta, Power Weapon, Pod - 235

Fast:

Land Speeder - Heavy Flamer/Multimelta - 70
Land Speeder - Heavy Flamer/Multimelta - 70

Heavy

Stormraven - Las or Assault cannon, TL-Multimelta - 200





Tip: When Combat Squadding your ASMs keep the TH/PF and Meltaguns separate. If they're all in one half, Target Priority is easy easy easy.