Blood Angels Dreadnoughts (Focusing on Blood Talons)

So, these are a few thoughts I've had on BA Dreads so far and I would like your opinions on them. The biggest thing I've been thinking about is the DC Dread vs Furioso. Now, since both Dreads cost the same we have to look at what makes them different in order to find the better choice.

Looking at the Furioso first, the easiest thing to notice is the potential Psyker Dread. This purchase increases the cost considerably, though he still costs the same as the go to Daemon Prince so it's not too bad. The benefits and draw backs of making him a Libby are many and varied so I won't even try to cover them. Librarian upgrade aside, the Furioso also has a 13 front armor, and access to the Frag Cannon. The rest of the upgrades available are the same to the DC Dread + extra armor.

Now the DC Dread, he comes with an extra attack, Furious Charge guaranteed, Daemonic Possession, Fleet, and Rage. He also drops to 12 front armor, though that's not a huge blow it is something to keep in mind.

Now then, all that was just so that I'd have some basis for my opinion on the dreadnoughts. What it comes down to for me, is the difference between Rage/Fleet/DP and 13FA/Controllable. I've been thinking it over, and if I decide to put a dreadnought into my list it will be a Furioso with Talons and NOT a DC Dread. That said, if I were to run a DC Dread it most certainly would not have the Talons, but instead the fists and Grapple. Basically because having S6 forced to attack a vehicle is hell so my thought is Rage + Talons does not work. However, DC + Fists + Grapple = 2 S8 shots on a vehicle one of which pulls it closer for that assault to make up for loss of the run.

The Grapple/Fist Dread brings up a question for me. When a vehicle shoots it's weapons, do they all go off simultaneously or do I pick which go off first? Example: DC Dread Moves, Shoots Grapple, Glances and pulls vehicle 2d6" closer, Shoots melta now within 6" and pops it. I don't think that's how it works, but I really want it to .

What are your opinions?

If i remember correctly the timing is

Designate unit to fire
Designate target
check LOS
check range
Roll to hit with all weapons
Roll to wound / pen for the hits
Check damage for glances & pens

Sadly I dont think the grapple does anything to change the base firing rules other than the second chance to attach.
If that was how it worked, then I think i'd have the grapple on every dread j/k.

Between stock meltagun and grapple, I'd go with talons for infantry and 2 shots with s8 weaponry on a vehicle. Since you're never locked in combat with a vehicle you should be able to shoot it, assault it, and then if they don't move, beat on it on their turn. With a DC dread that's 5 s7 attacks on the charge, too.

bsimon wrote:

Between stock meltagun and grapple, I'd go with talons for infantry and 2 shots with s8 weaponry on a vehicle. Since you're never locked in combat with a vehicle you should be able to shoot it, assault it, and then if they don't move, beat on it on their turn. With a DC dread that's 5 s7 attacks on the charge, too.

Yes but if the meltagun doesnt hit you cannot move away from the vehicle once you are next to it.... or drop pod and you spend 4+ turns beating on it, because you can't move away. So you sit w/ str 6 attacks. It is a sucky experience and one I have endured. I agree fully with phoenix on this one.

Really the only option would be if the melta missed, to not assault (you don't have to assault with rage) and just stay the inch away from the pod or whatever to use your melta again next turn. I don't think grapple really has a place on any drednought - I find it to be pretty gimicky.

Maybe I'm missing something fundamental here, or someone is:

They drop a drop pod next to you. On your turn, meltagun it, then charge with 5 s7 auto hits. If it's alive, on his turn, you get 4 more at s6. Then, if you still can't drop it, on your turn meltagun it again and charge it again. Repeat until dead.

You can also slide around a drop pod (you're still moving close to the closest visible enemy) and then charge something that's on the other side if you can sidle close enough.

bsimon wrote:

You can also slide around a drop pod (you're still moving close to the closest visible enemy) and then charge something that's on the other side if you can sidle close enough.

Even if you 'slide' around, the drop pod would still be closer to your dred than a vehicle 2" away.

Show me where it says you have to charge the closest unit. =)

bsimon wrote:

You can also slide around a drop pod (you're still moving close to the closest visible enemy) and then charge something that's on the other side if you can sidle close enough.

My bad. I assumed on your original reply that distance was somehow a factor in this situation.

Yeah, the other unit would have to be within ~6-8" of the drop pod. You can sidle along around the pod though.

You can also angle the opponent's drop pod to protect your back.

This is about the third post here I've seen on "oh noes, a drop pod shuts down my DC dreadnought" as though it's a magical thing. There's plenty of workarounds.

There would be no charge again, if you have to "move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy" you can't back up to get that charge again. If that's the case then the only way you could do anything is if your in the middle of everything already or if your opponent slips up and feeds you something. Also, the rules for movement (p. 11 BRB) state "A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than it's own base... To keep this clear a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting." That being the case, once a target with rage charges something, say a drop pod, they would not be able to move, even by sidling around the same model, until it is dead (or in the case of something mobile more than 1" away). That said I'm still sticking by my original thought of DC with Fists (Grapple optional) and Furioso with Talons.

I think what bsimon is trying to say is that the Rage rules don't say you have to assault the closest enemy in the Assault phase; so since you wouldn't be locked down into an assault with a vehicle; if by sidling around you can get within charging distance over another nearby unit you could then charge them; even if the drop pod or whatever was still "alive".

You are also assuming the pod has something in it for the dred to charge other than the pod. An enemy might just drop the empty pod next to your dred, and let whatever unit it had walk on. Then there is NOT another unit for him to assault if he fails to kill the pod.

Yes, he doesn't have to assault the closest model. Still the dred can miss with his melta (1 in 3 is pretty high). Str 7 on one charge has a decent chance to kill the pod, but then again it also has a good chance not to.
I've seen this happen and have played the DC dred alot. I have seen him played enough to know he is bunk and is too easy to minimize. Its not about fiddling with rage movement rules (sidling), its simply about playtesting and realizing that in over half the games you play you will have trouble with rage and him chasing stupid stuff. If a squad disembarks smartly from a rhino, you wouldnt even be able to attack the squad... you'd have to go for the rhino if played right and that is not using the blood talons well - especially if you need 6's to hit.

The drop pod is only one example. Any landraiders as they drive near will kite him around too. If you are going to field a DC, I agree the fist is the better option.

abbottj83 wrote:

I think what bsimon is trying to say is that the Rage rules don't say you have to assault the closest enemy in the Assault phase; so since you wouldn't be locked down into an assault with a vehicle; if by sidling around you can get within charging distance over another nearby unit you could then charge them; even if the drop pod or whatever was still "alive".

If the enemy is using the pod trick, he will make sure to not have a unit within 6" right?

Wildeyedjester wrote:

abbottj83 wrote:

I think what bsimon is trying to say is that the Rage rules don't say you have to assault the closest enemy in the Assault phase; so since you wouldn't be locked down into an assault with a vehicle; if by sidling around you can get within charging distance over another nearby unit you could then charge them; even if the drop pod or whatever was still "alive".

If the enemy is using the pod trick, he will make sure to not have a unit within 6" right?

I thought the hypothetical that was being argued was assuming there was another enemy within 6" and then trying to decide whether or not the DC Dread could assault it. Having another enemy within charge range was a base assumption for the argument of the point I thought.

If there aren't any other nearby enemies then yes you are stuck there; I just thought bsimon was trying to show that you aren't 100% totally screwed in ALL situations; there could be a lucky rare circumstance where you could go kill other things.

Quote :

there could be a lucky rare circumstance where you could go kill other things.

Lucky rare circumstances are not something you want to count on happening when you design your list. On the off chance your opponent slips up yes you can assault away from the vehicle they fed you, but chances are if they fed you a vehicle they're doing it to keep you away from other things. The nice points of a DC Dread with Talons simply isn't worth it when you factor in uncontrollable rage.

You could also plan around it by using either of the below:
Storm ravens
Other units moving first and blocking LOS and/or a path to the "closest unit"

Insufficient ability to remove opponent's vehicles is a list design failure. I know, my space wolves suffer from it (intentionally - because I like pushing around that many cavalry models).

Try playtesting stormraven + DC dread. TL-MM and TL-AssCannon when you move 12", into the tank you want to pop, and the dreadnought gets out 2", has a 2.5" base, a 3.5" fleet if possible, and then a charge, and you likely will be in range of the unit you want to assault.

Personally, I don't like DC dreads because they take up a troops choice, meaning you have at least 2 non-scoring troops choices. I'd playtest them more, but I can't get a game in most weeks against anyone who actually knows the system.

Ok, new question in the same vein. How badly does a dread with Talons need a Pod? The 1850 list I'm working on is coming out perfectly points wise, but I'm stuck trading a TH for a PF and the Reclusiarch for a Chaplain in order to fit in a pod for my Furioso. I have a very large wall of armor that he could easily hide behind. The biggest thing is that the Reclusiarch is I5 while the Chappy is only I4.

Also, on a somewhat less related topic TH or 5 Lights+Fist?

More people coming to the realization that the dred is not worth it:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/05/blood-angels-furioso-dread-with-blood.html