Time Limits at Tournaments

bsimon wrote:

, and we finished my turn during lunch, postponing the tournament... not at all. For comparison, most tournaments I've been to, if you and your opponent finishes during lunch, the TO doesn't mind (much).

My apologies on the assumption that you meant me, but reading into the response without any specifics led me to believe this.

This is a perfect example of how we all stand something to learn.

It is never acceptable to continue playing after time is called in a tournament. Just as each person playing must all play the same scenario, they must also play in the allotted time. Out of fairness the judge must keep things consistent and neither player should start a turn if there is not enough time for them both to get their complete turns in. It is player responsibility to know how much time they have left.

In the tournament in question you were able to finish your game despite time having already being called. If another opponent needed to have done the same (maybe playing orks or a horde army), and this had occurred in the first round (instead of going into lunch) he would not have been able to do so. If you can play late going into lunch, then everyone must be able to play late. You either specify play until the game is finished OR you set a time limit.

When time is up it means dice down and that is it. A tournament organizer that knows their stuff knows to enforce that rule and never let play continue once it is called. It helps with tournament staying on schedule, but it is also a fairness issue when not enforced.

We had a game that went almost an hour and a half over on one occasion at CHG. When I tried to enforce it, several people told me to back down. Next time a tournament is held at CHG; I'll know NOT to back down.

Time limits mus be enforced at the tournament level. They keep the event on schedule, and they keep the field level. As a tournament organizer, I have had to, on several occasions, tell people to stop playing and get their scoresheets turned in.

Think how rude you are being when you play over the allotted time, and others are waiting on your sorry butt so they can start the next game, go to lunch with your opponent, or get the stuff cleaned up so we can move on to other things. What about the players on the other table that stopped on turn 5 just because they saw that there was not enough time for another turn. You have cheated them. Yes I said CHEATED.

Patriot games will enforce time limits! In fact, we will use the same type of scoring system that was used at Sooiepalooza, docking points for people that can't follow rules. It's not OK to cheat!

Am I crazy, or did you have a no-time-limit game 3 at Sooie either this year or last? No turn cap either?

Wildeyedjester wrote:

It is never acceptable to continue playing after time is called in a tournament. Just as each person playing must all play the same scenario, they must also play in the allotted time. Out of fairness the judge must keep things consistent and neither player should start a turn if there is not enough time for them both to get their complete turns in. It is player responsibility to know how much time they have left.

It is 100% TO's responsibility to enforce. That's not on players at all, IMO. You should not start a turn you can't finish, but neither Matt nor I intentionally did that (at least, I didn't, and I assume Matt didn't). On the other hand, if the TO decided it was time to finish, it's on the TO to enforce, not other players.

One thing Capn did at the Ard Boyz that was nice was call out time remaining at approximately 30 or 45 minutes before round end.

It looks like he's talking about "in general." If part of game 3's scenario was "Play till you finish" then that would be a different situation, right?

3 years ago at SOOIE we had a Saturday Night NO LIMIT game. It was a disaster! No more of those. What's your point, Brent?

Mostly just how NOW, when there is another thread on this board about tournaments and time limits, you're all up in arms about time limits. The last tournament in your shop had games run through lunch, same as Hobbytown, same as several of the CHG tournaments.

At least you're not intentionally rigging matches up so certain people can't win, anymore.

warhammerworld wrote:

Patriot games will enforce time limits!

Good to hear. Just make sure that your players always know where they stand in a round and it should be good to go. I like the 1 hr reminder and the half hour reminder, counting down from there as needed.

Don't just announce out of nowhere that the players have 5 minutes left. That can frazzle them if they are mid-turn 5.

Judge responsibility?

If a player willingly fields 2100 points in an 1850 point game they have knowingly broken the rules. They also may think it only matters if the judge enforces the points limit.

If two players in a tournament play each other and tie, and then both adjust their overall points to wins, thinking it only matters if the judge both catches it and enforces it - they are also knowingly taking advantage of the system and hoping the judge won't notice or act.

By playing over time limit, knowing the time limit is in place, means you knowingly break the rules - hoping the judge won't notice or act.

How about not enforcing WYSIWYG and taking advantage of that to bring models with wargear that you don't own? I see this a lot at CHG and HobbyTown. I don't see anyone up in arms about that. I'd see it more at TSE, I think, but Dennis has only ran 1 40k tournament in the last 4 months that I recall, and Fantasy is pretty cut and dry on gear.

How about list enforcement? I've seen several examples at all three sites where someone put the wrong selections in his roster and played with a different roster than he had listed. I didn't actually force that issue at CHG or TSE when I had opponents do that.

Note that I very very clearly said we didn't intend to, BUT that we both agreed to finish the game turn that we had started. At that point it would be the TO's responsibility, and only the TO (not other players, for instance) to interject in the game. That's why Matt got in your face about it - it wasn't your place to interject. That's the same as pointing out to the next table over that they aren't playing by the rules correctly - it's one thing to be asked, it's another to butt in.

I had paid just as much money as you had and I was well within my rights to remind you that time had already been called. That bit about interrupting your game is just balogna - If you are playing a rule wrong at your table, I agree - that is your business.

If you add points to your reported tournament total, though, that is very much my business as a player whether it is my table or not if I see you doing it. By taking that extra turn so the game wouldn't end in a tie, you might as well have just called it at the time limit and have adjusted your totals as you saw fit. The only reason that extra turn was taken was because neither of you were happy with the way it stood at that moment (a tie). I, personally, think that is a little different than someone who calls a flamer a plasma gun.....

I am not one to hold my tongue, nor will I be in situations where actions cause direct changes in the leaderboard. Again, I was in no danger of being on that leader board - but others were. If you had been in Will's shoes (sitting in first at that moment) and someone else had done this I would have been just as irate. It is a fairness issue.

I don't hold it against you, but I am glad it is something that has been brought up locally. Everyone makes mistakes when they play.

The good thing about this is that I don't think there will be any more 'over time limit' games locally.

So just so I understand:

Two people take an extra turn, game points change, you stand up for that.
Two people misinterpret a rule causing one to win when it should be a tie, that's between them.
One person brings marines that aren't reflected on his force (Meltaguns instead of Flamers, for instance), and manages to crack a tank and win from doing so, that's between them.

All three scenarios above change standings but only one of those three you consider worthy of interjecting into a game over?

What if Matt had complained about Will running late for round 2? Did you complain about that? Or the fact Matt theoretically got less time for his game because Will had an emergency come up? I don't recall any discussion about that at all...

Will was only moments late and Matt ended up wiping him anyway. Will had a sick child and it was not something he 'elected' to do. No discussion was needed becauuse it didn't matter.

If someone adds in a melta gun when they have only a flamer in their list then that is cheating. If someone calls a flamer a meltagun and it is represented in their list it is not cheating... its is just not obeying Wysiwig. As long as they let you know at the start of the game I don't have issue with it, but I agree even that would not fly at a GT.

If someone plays a scenario wrong then they should be penalized. I also think in this case it is okay to point out an error to them if it can be solved.

It is not okay to butt into someones game and tell them what they should be doing on the table, strategically, or play wise. But, if someone is committing a blatant error affecting the whole tournament standings it is okay to talk to them. If they don't respond well - the judge should be brought in.

Now, we are also both dancing around it, but at Hobby Town the 'judge' had only gotten back 30 minutes before from going to get pizza, and he didn't know 40k rules hardly at all, or I would have involved him instead of asking you guys to stop once time was called. I honestly thought that by just mentioning it, since you were both knowledgeable players, you would just agree stop. I was actually quite a bit shocked when you both just ignored me and played on.

Since I believe I have made my point and you have made yours, I am closing this thread. Both of us are the kind of person who will want the last word in here, and I think we can both agree that this could go on for days:D

I also want to say publicly that Brent is a great and nice guy, and I consider him a friend. He will bend over backwards for you if you need something. He has helped me out numerous times and I can only hope to repay the favors. Brent also knows the rules very well and is a great person to learn from. I look forward to playing him anytime.

Disagreements happen! However, I do believe that there will be no more 'over time limit' games in our area.