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 My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)

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capnwoodrow
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   7th March 2012, 9:22 pm

Dark horse is morally against shooting phases.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   7th March 2012, 10:33 pm

capnwoodrow wrote:
Dark horse is morally against shooting phases.

Bill Edwards (really good Fantasy player in 4e-6e) said something once that still sticks with me. He said that he could shoot someone off the board with Empire, or run them off the board with Brettonians, but if he used Brettonians, his sports and comp scores were better because no one enjoys just removing models. Even if he's going into every combat expecting to win by 10 or more, his opponent at least got to roll dice and that made them happier.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   7th March 2012, 10:55 pm

See when I played that was my exact thought but it wasnt shooting that got me though - it was my stuff vanishing to magic. A single model taking out a unit(s) is much worse than a unit taking out a unit in my mind.

I like shooting and armies that hold the opponent at arms length. But you wouldnt have guessed that with my playing guard, tau, eldar and necrons, right?
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   7th March 2012, 11:43 pm

I agree with you Jester, except that it's the opposite in my case (if that makes any sense).

I can stop a magic phase. I can't "stop" an IG shooting phase. At worst the big spells are going to take out 50% of a unit depending on what they throw. Like my elves fear dwellers, but my warriors would probably let it go. With the new leadership/bsb rules it's unlikely that you'll just fail and run off the board an the only two spell in the game that can actually delete a unit are 13th and Gateway.

On the other hand, sitting there while my opponent goes "Ok these four psycannons go here....8 shots...5 hits...4 pens....your vehicle is wrecked. Ok these four psycannons here....ok now the first psyrifleman will shoot that..." for 10 minutes while I just pick up models is much more disheartening in my opinion.

But like I said, I agree 100% - disliking a phase of the game can really put you off to the whole thing.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 3:35 am

Pretty much why I hardly, if at all, play 40k anymore. To each there own but 40k's alpha strike mentality and less interaction between players and units got stale. It got pretty redundant getting to the top tables at 40k where you both are good players with good target priority and it almost exclusively came down to who gets first turn. I'll take a magic phase over shooting phases any day.

<---- coming from a guy that has 86 crossbows in my all comers list! :p

all complaining aside I'm looking forward to the new empire book.
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PostSubject: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 8:58 am


My point was that I didn't understand how you could dislike shooting but be okay with magic in fantasy?
I played Fantasy for 10 years prior to 40k. Its just a part of the game in my mind, but I have always had a loathing for magic and total power. Ever since magic was played by you drawing a hand full of power and dispel cards.

@ LBB and CW:

Now to retort:

Wait, now. People are so touchy about the game system they are vested in Smile . Look back - I never once compared Fantasy to 40k. I enjoy both, but both are very different. I simply don't have time with the family to play both, so I play the one I am more heavily vested in (money, time and skill? wise).

You guys are talking about alpha strike and removing tanks. Remember in 2/3 of the games you don't really care if your tank is destroyed. Go to cover and grab objectives - win the game. Those psyfleman aren't that mobile and once the light armor is gone they are mediocre. Do I hate them? Yes. Can they, alone, with the game? No. Do I still hate them? Yes.

(In fantasy, I guess there isn't the objectives, so I can see how it is more of a problem if stuff is dying to shooting. I had not really considered that previously.)

Or if you are going to be Alpha struck, reserve and deny 2 rounds of shooting. Or go balls to the wall and get to the guard/grey knights and then munch it in hand to hand. Guard stuff comes off the table just as fast once you get to it. Remember in our last game LBB, there was no alpha strike. You were in my grill in 3 spots on the board and the only thing that swung that game was the last turn when your scouts turned up on the wrong side. Otherwise you ran amock popping my backfield and it was game over.

Another thing to consider - recall that night fight impedes alpha strike and the necrons really throw a kink into alpha strike as well. Sweet E can confirm this. There will be a decrease in the amount of alpha strike armies you will see as a result, even if you don't play necrons yourself. My guard don't work too well in the dark.

Hrmm..... If I am wanting to start a 'x' game is better thread, maybe I should also mention that I also played warmachine for a few games, but didn't enjoy how close everything was together. (I also would have kept playing it but there's just not time for everything) Now we can go full circle with this! Maybe I should start a new thread?

As a disclaimer: All three systems are great. I enjoy them all Smile

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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 9:49 am

I don't think anyone was starting a neckbeard "my game is bigger than yours" thread. In fact, my point was that I agree with you. Smile

The only reason I mentioned 40k was because your point was that you didn't like magic, but you like Shooty 40k armies - so there was a base comparison between the two games.

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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 9:54 am

I like shooty in 40k and Fantasy though!

Empire!
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 10:01 am



lol. My last Dark Elf build put out 111 shots a turn and Darkhorse looked like he was going to cram my dice down my throat - that's why I find it amusing that he's going Empire now.

3 great cannons, 2 super cannons, 40 crossbow shots, 30 pistol shots. That's where I see Empire going.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 10:15 am

Can we create a thread arguing about the editions of D&D? I would gladly participate in that as well.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 10:22 am

capnwoodrow wrote:
Can we create a thread arguing about the editions of D&D? I would gladly participate in that as well.
Only if you say Pretty Please with Sugar on Top!!!
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 10:29 am

There have always been problems with every game that I have played, but as most of you have alluded to, there is almost always a kryptonite to every superman. In one off games it is very easy to include that kryptonite in your army for whatever particular superman you are facing. The problem arises when you go to play in a tournament and have built an all comers list and you get paired up with that guy that just goes over the top with one or two aspects of the game....i.e. the guy who brings the dwarf or empire gun line backed up by 2-3 uber units of unkillableness, or the IG army that blows my crap off the table turn 1a as I did not bring my crons. It is part of the game and you just have to live with it. Paraphrasing the Warmachine rule book.....Play like you got a pair. Put up and shut up, this game is not for whiners.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 10:38 am

cheers

As an aside this emoticon reminds me of the scene in platoon
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 1:41 pm

In A way it's like someone playing a deathstar army (do you really want to deal with a horde of chosen of tzeentch backed by 2 shrines?) The short answer is no, the longer answer is yeS, there's a counter for it. And yes, it feels "cheap" just like that kid that always sat with e Honda doing hundred hands, it's satisfying to do once in a while but ultimately something I'd imagine would get boring over a longer time frame.

All that said, I'd already been thinking of something snooty for me second army because let's face it, shooting is something chaos doesn't do. Yeah there's the hellcannon and some gifts, but that's it. Sometimes you feel like a nut and sometimes you don't. I'm not sure that down rating someone in a tourney for going shooty is the right thing either. I know I wouldn't even with my melded heavy woc. It's like complaining that someone else has better spells or tougher infantry. Some armies are made to be shooty ( empire dwarves and wood elves ) penalizing them for playing their army right just feels like a douche move. Then again, win or lose I'm usually having fun.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 5:43 pm

Sounds like Bill had it right. Newer players are still under the illusion of playing balanced lists with the opportunity to experience all four phases. Not a lot of fun to just pull models, but that seems to be the theme and what I observed in 40k. Break the army and build the baddest list (and yes, some armies will not be as competitive.) Ares had it right. It is what it is and you can always find other games, or players. Hopefully newer players will stick around after spending a ton of money only to be blown off the board by some experienced player with "the list." We should all strive to bring new blood into the game. Just my opinon.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 6:00 pm

I think I may have been taken out of context. I never said "FANTAASY IS BETTRERAZZZ THAN 40k!!!>@!" I did say that I prefer fantasy over 40k. I believe that is an opinion I have a right to as well as someone liking 40k over fantasy.

I hated 6th/7th edition fantasy. That's why a couple years ago I pretty much exclusively played 40k.

6th/7th ed pitfalls that i disliked include;
No step up rule. High initiative armies had huge advantages to kill off the front rank of slow armies and take no casualties in return and easily win combat.
A super easily abusable magic phase. 21 powerdice vs 3 dispel dice of opponent. (mostly vc and demons)
Terror bombing things and running away half of the opponents army.
Bsb helped only with roughly 20% of leadership tests.
Flying was too fast and easy.

8th ed isn't perfect but most everything i disliked in fantasy was fixed. despite what the 'internet' says some of the things that are considered broken are needed to balance things out. Dwellers isn't scary to a msu army with characters in different units but will make you think twice about a 50 man deathstar with 5 characters in it.

Some things I have grown to dislike about 40k currently are;
The cover system. Some armies benefit GREATLY and some armies it does almost nothing for except slow them down. A terminator with a storm shield is still harder to kill standing behind a tree than not.
The vehicle damage chart being an exact 1/6 chance to do anything. Whole games can literally come down to the out come of 2 or 3 d6 rolls. Some people like this as the last moments of games can be intense or down to the wire. I find it a waste of 2 hours for a coin toss.
Alpha strike mentality. Cripple your opponent so they're starting the game on their heels.

If i were to talk to the game designers I would offer a couple ideas for them.

Cover; light cover -1 to hit and hard cover -2 to hit. They can never be combined or stacked. This will benifit every army in some way. Also it would be a more accurate depiction of cover.
Vehicles in Cover; if 1%-50% is covered its considered light and if 51%-99% is covered it counts as hard cover.
On alpha striking; Allow popping smoke before the game starts but before the steal the initive roll is made. Smoke in my make believe world would act like this. Smoke = can only use once a game and is -1 to be hit and can stack with cover. I think this is a real world tactic that would add more tactical flexibility to the deployment 1st part of the game. If I'm a general or a squad sergeant and I know there are troops on the other side of the battle field that will have a 5/6 chance at shooting at me before I can shoot at them would I not throw smoke out or throw in flash or concussion grenades?

Those couple of simple changes would make me jump back in to 40k today.

Simple example; player a and b have alpha strike mech armies. player a wins the deployment roll off and has 5/6 chance to go first. player b can deploy as normal getting the brunt end of the alpha strike or hold in reserves pushing his position back getting further away from objectives and coming in piece meal.

With the minor tweaks; same scinario but player b can bunker in all his vehicles and pop smoke makeing player a's alpha strike less deadly but still giving it to him and if he chooses not to waste shots he can then move up full distance into better positions and pop his own smoke so player b can't alpha him. so turn 2a will be the first time a player can unleash full fire power. At least player b gets to participate and move for a turn getting to where his guys can sit in cover of their blown up vehicles.

So basically my main problem is I hate putting out 15 wonderfully painted tanks so that I can pick up 7 and have 4 more stunned or immobilized before I get a chance to move. I'm hardly saying fantasy is better than 40k and 40k players are less tactical than fantasy players and all the snooty stuff some fantasy players post. More so that its a lot more rare in fantasy to pick up half of your army before you even get to go and the other half can't move or is pinned 24" away from where you need to be.

All in all 3 or 4 years ago I preferred 40k, right now I prefer fantasy this will change with books and editions. To think that one is better than the other is silly, childish and simply a pissing contest.

That being said ignoring lore, fluff and models lotr is quite possibly the best miniature game rules set I've ever ran across and I will go on record as saying that I think it is easily better than both fantasy or 40k. The down fall there is that literally no body plays it. Sad

"So to recap. 40k is for losers, fantasy is a superior high brow game played by players that drink cognac and listen to Mozart. 40k is way badass and square basers are homosexual. Matt Ward is the devil and should be fired/shot/rapped/caught on fire/ and made to touch brittney spears. The newest codex/army book that comes out in 2 months is the most broken thing ever and no one can beat it." The Internet

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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 6:24 pm

There's the response I was trolling for!


Give in to your hatred people. I am looking for snarky comments and a road that will eventually lead to the dark side
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 7:13 pm

Years ago I preferred 40k to fantasy, now it's reversed. My biggest problem with 40k as it stands right now is everyone seems to sit in their vehicles and rely on their guns. What I've gathered from talking to others about the current environment is that it's more about who brings the most las and plas canons. Either way I'm definitely wanting to get an army together for 40k again but it'll wait till the new rules are out. By then I'll have a better idea of which army I want to play.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 10:08 pm

@ Khaas 40k is a game of vehicles. You can't just sit back because of objectives. You have to move, and both armies bring vehicles. Now that being said, whomever says its all about las cannons ans plasma cannons is referring to an old edition. Psycannons, meltas and missile launchers. But regardless of 6th Ed man, vehicles will always be prevalent.

@Darkhorse 40k is about taking losses, and perservering through that loss while also watching threat bubbles. The difference in 40k is both armies will remove things and still be in it as likely both armies will be shooting. Movement is key in 40k. It wasn't always this way but this edition got it right where fantasy lost it. There is no random move or random distance assault in 40k. It's all about the distances between units all the time. At first it looks like only units are pulled willy nilly but that's just the top layer of skin of the game. Next time your around and I'm playing ask me to go through my whole thought process as I play a game. I would be glad to.

I would also like to wager you guys enjoy fantasy more simply because it is more prevalent at your home shop. Its what you are used to. I'm not so blind to not realize the opposite is true about my home shop. I enjoy 40k more but I won't pretend one is better than the other. They are different - that is all.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 10:57 pm

capnwoodrow wrote:
I agree with you Jester, except that it's the opposite in my case (if that makes any sense).

On the other hand, sitting there while my opponent goes "Ok these four psycannons go here....8 shots...5 hits...4 pens....your vehicle is wrecked. Ok these four psycannons here....ok now the first psyrifleman will shoot that..." for 10 minutes while I just pick up models is much more disheartening in my opinion.

But like I said, I agree 100% - disliking a phase of the game can really put you off to the whole thing.

I haven't been on in a few days and logged on to find this post. I feel bad that I seem to have ruined capn's 40k experience.

To return to the topic of the post, I tend to agree with Jesters assessment of why I like 40k. It's because that's what my buddies are playing. I tend to play more for the social element than the game play experience. So no single phase of any game is going to be that terrible.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   8th March 2012, 11:14 pm

@jester to clarify, I meant that in the current environment I've been told people never disembark. They simply stay huddled in their vehicles throughout the game. But I've been out of 40k myself for nearly 15 years so all I have is here say. I'm definitely interested in getting into it as soon as new rules are released. But I may start collecting some chaos marines and imp guard soonish.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   9th March 2012, 10:33 am

I tend to agree with bits and pieces of all the guys posting on here. While I think that both games are great, I tend to prefer fantasy to 40K in the current edition. There are some rules that I think need to be changed with both systems and that is just my opinion. I have never had GW call me up and ask me what they needed to fix even though I have called them several times to tell them.
I could easily go through and tell you what I like or don't like about each game, but it doesn't really matter. Different people like the games for different reasons. I once had a guy come in and tell me that he played 40K because he could honestly see that our world would end up eventually looking like a 40K game but certainly not like a fantasy game. To each their own. We could spend hours upon hours and several hundred pages explaining why I think this game is better or that game is better, but in the end, it is a personal decision and we have to pick what makes us most happy. Me personally, it is eating a bacon cheeseburger and drinking an ice cold coke while pushing around little plastic men.
If you come in to the store I will certainly have a spirited discussion as to why I like what I like, and I may even call you some silly name like Angry Shane or Tripple G but just know that it is all in fun and that I am just happy that you are playing the games that I love and helping to support my future retirement and the ability to sit on my front porch and yell at the neighborhood kids about walking on my grass.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   9th March 2012, 10:38 am

ares wrote:
Me personally, it is eating a bacon cheeseburger and drinking an ice cold coke while pushing around little plastic men.

Quoted for truth.

Little plastic men are the optional part.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   9th March 2012, 10:40 am

Dammit Brian, now I want a burger from Patricks. And I have to work today...

Grr ^_^

Seriously though, that does sound like a good time.

You're absolutely right though, that's exactly why I quit playing WOW - it stopped being a fun game and started being a job. When you forget the fun factor, you're missing the point of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: My Game is Bigger Than Yours (Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Shooting Phase)   9th March 2012, 11:02 am

We all know why Jester jumped on the chance to have a game epeen thread: the guilt that eats at his soul and keeps him awake at night:

He knows he's playing the wrong game.
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